VQ35DE in 240sx S13, in progress.....

[specdracing]

Hey gang, Im new here, but thought you might like to see what Im up to.

Rebuilt VQ35DE ported and polished heads
Rebuilt 6-speed
350Z wiring and ECU
Custom mounts/shifter/etc.


Hope you like it!











New Custom Shifter extension being made to retain the stock Z shifter.



The proof is in the pudding, and this batch isn't quite done. I did snap another pic at work today, but haven't downloaded it yet.

Later!

[_Def_]

Would it be possible to move it back against the firewall anymore?

[Big_Bronze_Rim]

Originally Posted by _Def_

Would it be possible to move it back against the firewall anymore?

I'm wondering that as well. It looks like it could come back 2-3", or are there unseen clearance issues such as oil pan/crossmember that prevent it w/o lots of other mods?

[specdracing]

No, you cant move it forward or backward anymore than that. The oil pan is 1/4" off the crossmember. Anymore and it will have to be raised. Trust me, whatever you see, I have already tried! But the suggestions are always appreciated. Anymore back, and you'll also have to deal with the transmission rear housing being located at the shifter hole. I see where your going though, I really wanted to set it behind the front axles.....just not really doable at this time. Dry Sump? Now your talking!

Later!

[Chezecow]

Keep up the good work!

I might be imagining things, but looking at the topmost picture, is the engine slightly tilted to the left side of the car (right on picture)?

Anyways, would it be difficult to modify the crossmember slightly to allow the engine to sit lower, thus it could also sit a few inches back. The shifter is one problem, but could it be operated by wires, I recall some cars use wires to shift gear. I'm not saying you should do this, just asking if it's possible. I'm attempting the same swap this winter, with a vq25 and 350z tranny.

If you have ny more detailed pics of the mounts and issues you have come across, feel free to mail them to me willem.van.schevikhoven@raceperformance.fi

[carluch]

sweet, reminds me of my latest project...

[Danimal]

If I recall Fred did a mod on the back of the tranny to shorten it. He also as I recall fixed the cross member. I've pondered this and would actually consider a custom cross member to address that and also suspension geometry issues but thats just me.

[MATT_BACK_VASS]

what manifolds are you using on the drivers side?

I had a vq35 to replace my vg30 back in 2004, and i couldn't get the drivers side manifolds to work vs the steering shaft. well, not without a ton of welding.

[Fred_Allen_Burge]

Good work guys, glad to see the swap gaining popularity, it will replace the SR swap one day I'm sure, especially if somebody can come out with a set of mounts for sale and an easy solution for the shifter situation. My shifter linkage is actually a little farther forward than yours yet my motor appears to be farther rearward than yours (could be an illusion of your picture though).

Your's is the first to use the Z ecu that I've seen, I'm switching from the MegaSquirt to a Maxima ECU.

PS. you guys need to visit my site and introduce yourself and your projects, there's a lot of good info over there and like minded people thinking "outside the box".

Fred

[Fred_Allen_Burge]

Originally Posted by MATT_BACK_VASS

what manifolds are you using on the drivers side?

I had a vq35 to replace my vg30 back in 2004, and i couldn't get the drivers side manifolds to work vs the steering shaft. well, not without a ton of welding.

Personally I'm using the stock Z manifold lightly "notched" to clear the shaft's joint. It almost cleared as is but just needed a little clearancing.

Fred

[specdracing]

Yes, Yes, and Yes....lol. You caught me. The new motor mounts arent in yet. The crappy "slaptogethers" are still holding it up, mainly to get the fitment of almost everything. I began cuting out the new mounts today. As for making them, I found that a flat piece of steel cut like and L with bushings works great. That's why the engine is tilting and a little right. It will be straightened up by the time of completion. As for the ECU changes, you may want to double check the injection harness and the passenger side ignition harness (coils 1 and 3) as the Z harness has the IVT solenoid wiring through this connector and a maxima has it in a different spot. Just check, Im not sure what all you have done, but if it is a Z harness, you'll need to reroute the wires. I used a combination of harnesses. The engine harness is late 2004 350Z 6-speed, the E10/E11/E12 and M72 body harness connections are early 2004 G35 Coupe 6-speed, the Bank 2 igntion harness is 2004 Quest/Maxima as is the fuel injector harness. Talk about some heavy wiring! LOL The shifter will be my last hurdle. The drivers side manifold will either get redirected or completely tossed. Depends on if I feel like making headers or not. By the time this is done, I doubt I'll want to spend another day making custom headers.

Later all!

[Fred_Allen_Burge]

Thanks for the heads up, I'm using a Maxima ECU and harness so I should be good to go. What is the IVT solenoid though?

Fred

[Chezecow]

Fred, as for the engine being closer to the firewall and the shifter being more forward, I think it's just the chassis thats different, you have an s14 and this seems to be s13.

Btw. Would anyone here appen to know if a VQ20 or VQ25 block could be bored to 3.0? Or a 3.0 to 3.5? (I know the heads might need to changed, but im talking about the block only).

I hope to start my install in the spring. The chassis is being sandblasted and painted atm. almost everything that can be changed/uprated will get upgraded or just replaced with new parts.

[specdracing]

Yes, the S14 is longer. The center of the hole in the body for the shifter is approximately 4" farther back from the crossmember than on the S13. Yes, Im using an S13 hatch body. I am purchasing an S13 coupe (two tone, blue and black....drewl) for my personal swap. I have already gotten the supercharger for the VQ35 Im dropping in it.

As for the VQ20/25 engines. VQ engines are all OPEN DECK. So if you want to make that engine 3.0 litres, you can try a maxima crank or you can resleeve the engine. Advanced Engine Breathing Systems should be able to design the sleeves for you. They make the best stroker kit for the VQ35 I've seen yet, giving you 4.3L at 11.5, 11.0 or 8.5:1 compression.

Im not too familiar with the VQ20/25, all I know is its available overseas. I do have to ask as to why you would want to use it. I'm guessing the block is nearly identical and weight should be the same within a few pounds.

Back to the swap, heres more pics!



These three connectors (E10, E11, E12) carry the electric throttle wiring and most of the power supplies for the harness.



CAN Lines. You need these for the stock ECU to communicate with the Consult II and the BCM for key registration.



Consult II hooked up. Data monitor on screen shows me only the fuel temp sensor and air intake temp sensors are not registering. The reason...lol...they're not hooked up yet. The white paper beside the consult is the DTC slip. I have a few codes stored due to systems that arent wired yet and a nats malfunction as the BCM isnt hooked up and no keys have been registered.



A new look at the engine bay. All that wiring is hooked up except for 3 or 4 wires. It will get all taped and attached to the bay/engine in the next few days.



This is the folder I am keeping all the diagrams and information in that I have aquired durring this swap. Notice that it is nearly 2" thick. LOL Good thing I work for Nissan or I would'nt have been able to get half of this.



Wonderful looking motor mount huh? Well, not yet, I need to sand the surface rust off and start welding the pieces together. This is 1/4" thick cold steel, so I highly doubt there will be any structural problems here.

Well, that's it for tonight guys. Oh, I forgot to mention, the M72 connector under the dash has to be wired up and it is nearly identical to the one in the S14's.

Later.

[specdracing]

Oh yeah, can anyone guess what alternator that is? I'll just tell you, its the stock 240 unit. Yeap, it fits, just put a 6 rib pulley on it. Also, the fuel rails on the stock VQ are a returnless system. We are tapping the rails on both ends for a feed in and out. The stock inlet will be cut off and welded shut. The fuel pressure regulator will be mounted on the side of the manifold and is also being supplied from the KA. Just cut the flange from the KA rail, tap it and thtread in a fitting. That takes care of the fuel rail. Later guys.

[Chezecow]

Heh, from your point of view I am positioned overseas, I'm form Finland We have VQ20 to 35 in here, but laws dont allow me a size bigger thand 2.960cc or so. I dont remember exactly what the correct numbers were, but a VQ30 is TWO CC too big for me.
Thats why i tought of just boring a VQ20 to 35 or so. No-one would actually notice it at mot, they just check the numbers on the side of the block

Turbocharging it has also crossed my mind, but the main priority is to get it running and drive around N/A for a while. (Plus ofc. assemble the whole car, everything including every bolt'n' nut is seperated at this point).

[modreadz]

Any plans making a kit? My ka24de is slow as f, sr20 will get my car impounded, and the v8 kit I was looking at won't let me pass the visual inspection. Btw my car is an s14 and I live in Commie Cali.

[Fred_Allen_Burge]

A consult II, I'm officially jealous now! Perks of working at Nissan I guess!

I'm avoiding the whole CAN system and BCM by using the 02 Maxima ECU and harness but if you have access to Consult you should be good to go as far as trouble shooting goes. I tried to start mine last night to no avail, I've got a few wiring issues to fix today and try again.

I'm curious how much you know about the IMMU security system. When the ECU fails to recognize the key what exactly does the ECU do (or not do)? Does it simply not send signal to the coils and injectors or does it also cut power to the MAF and throttle position sensors? Most of the critical sensor such as those get power directly from the ECU I've noticed which is a little odd, that's why I'm wondering if it's related to the IMMU system.

Thanks and good work!
Fred

[BlaBla]

Originally Posted by modreadz

Any plans making a kit? My ka24de is slow as f, sr20 will get my car impounded, and the v8 kit I was looking at won't let me pass the visual inspection. Btw my car is an s14 and I live in Commie Cali.

you are SOL
Where I live in VA : just a visual inspection to make sure the car is safe, no emissions.
The guy I went to last time for inspection told me I should drop a chevy small block in it lol...

[specdracing]

MODREADZ, I'd have to check your local and state laws. If you find them, email them to me and I will see what I can come up with. I have managed to install a few RB series motors into S14's who need to have a working DLC for state inspection. I got them to pass, I dont see why I cant get your car to pass a dynometer test (I suppose its like Houston, TX there in Cali).

BlaBla, I agree, its great living in the south. Even in Charlotte, if our car is older than 1995, we just get a safety insp.

IMMU....on to the trickier stuff. Here's the basics of NATS. A ring located on the ignition has a transmitter in it, this is called the NATS Amplifier. It energizes the key once inserted which allows the key to produce a signal to the unit. The amplifier then sends that info via regular wiring to the BCM. The Body Control Module then sends this information via the CAN lines to the ECM. BCM lines carry digital signals, so no chance in an Ohms/Voltage or Frequency test here. The ECM stores the NATS ID from the KEY. The BCM is basically the lock but the ECM is the knob. Without turning the lock, the knob wont open the door. The ECM shuts down ignition and kills the fuel injectors. I'm guessing this is done by ignoring the crank/cam sensor inputs. I havent cracked it yet, and if I do, I dont think I'll post it on the internet (we'd sure have alot of Infiniti's missing then!). If you have NATS on your computer, you WILL have to run a BCM. The other bad news is that there are as many different BCM's per car as there are ECM's. So it's best to buy your engine harness, ecu, bcm and nats amp all from the same car.

[specdracing]

Oh, and if you like the Consult II, you'll really get sick when I put pics of us using the new ToughBook on this car. Toughbook????? Yeah, its the Consult III. Finally!

[Broaner]

Wow, great work. The family is getting larger and larger.

As for mounts, I plan on refabbing mine in late winter. They will clear the stock S13 hood. If there is enough interest I may make a set or two.

[specdracing]

A few more pics. I've been sick lately, and missed a little bit of work, therefore not much time for the project, but here's the shifter itself and the rear linkage.


The whole thing. This is how it will be in the car. The shifter is bent forward in order to give me the final inch I need to center it. The linkage has been shortened considerably to make up for the shorter shifter bracket that will also be
installed (pics of that next).



A closer look at the shifter. I painted it black because welds arent pretty. Basically, I took a stock 350Z shifter and notched it. The notches allowed me to bend the shifter forward. I then welded the notches. Had my torch not have been out of gas, I'd have just heated it up and bent it.



The linkage. This is what connects the shifter to the shifting forks inside the transmission. I removed the 6" rod that was origionaly between these two u-joints.



The rod I removed is just under the shifter. If you can imagine it, you can see the great amount this shortened the shifter.
This joint MUST be used in order for the shifter to work. The 6-speed transmission uses a remote mount shifter...meaning the shifter itself does not directly come in contact with the shift forks. It also uses a plate to block reverse unless the shifter is pressed down. Without these joins, the shifter will not go anywhere.
Im guessing my gear throws will be greatly shortened by this, we'll see. Hopefully not too much, or possibly, it wont affect it at all.

Later gang!

[specdracing]

OK gang...here it is. The long awaited shifter fix! FINALY DONE.
This is the mock-up, and will work just fine if any of you do this swap and dont want to pay someone to weld the pieces. These will get welded together though, and the bolts removed.
Enjoy.....




Side by side. Left is a stock unit I have, right is the modified trans with the modified shifter installed.



Same thing, but from the side to really show the difference in length.



A side view of the shifter housing.



Rear view shifter housing.



Front view of the shifter housing.



Close up of the shifter housing from the front. This shows the stock brackets, the alluminum inserts I used to raise the shifter hub to the proper height, and the shifter hub itself. The aluminum pieces in the middle are from the bracket, I just cut them out and fit them to the bracket. Some grinding and sanding was needed to get everything to sit flush. Holes were drilled to insert bolts to hold it all together. Five minutes with my welder and this will all be one piece.
So next I just have to removed my transmission from this car and install the modified one. OH, and by the way, I rebuilt this trans. Below are pics of the syncros while I had it apart.



The bellhousing, cleaned out.



The guts of the trans.



2nd gear engaged. These syncs tend to wear on the flat spot near the sync hub inserts. They will bevel towards the shaft, causing dificult shifting.



Can anyone spot the mistake? Yeap, the input shaft isn't on the main shaft. While I was installing the gears to the center plate, the input shaft fell loose. NOTE TO EVERYONE: Always remember to zip tie your gears together so they dont do this. It cost me about 45 minutes of time to take it back apart and install the shaft. But as you see from above, the transmission is together. OH, and the throw didnt change much at all, shifting is nearly identical to the stock 350Z. I measured the distances and the shifter should sit exactly where the stock S13 shifter does. SWEET [IMG]http://images.****************.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

[_Def_]

Interesting "fix."

I suggest using some fender washers at the very least on those bolts you have acting as large dowel pins on the side of the relocated shifter pivot assy. You can already see they're under considerable bending stress. Put a fender washer in there to increase the bearing area and reduce the amount of torque you are putting on them. The ideal solution would be to take a flat sheet of steel/aluminum at least 1/8" thick and drill out the 4 holes and use that as both a laterally and vertically stressed bulkhead.

[vosko]

i think he said he is going to weld the *fix* together

[specdracing]

That "considerable strain"...lol...are actually precisely drilled holes. I drilled those holes, at those angles (including routing the paths on the hub) all the way through, then redrilled a slightly larger hole into the spacers only (again, routing the hub). Finally I tapped the hole in the base brackets for threads. Once all that was done, I installed the bolts with no more than 15 lb/ft of torque. The V is because of the amount of meat I was able to drill into. I appreciate your concern, but then again, would you really want me putting a VQ35DE + 6 speed into your S13 if I didnt know what over tourqing a bolt looked like?

Sorry, not trying to be difficult, but just figured if you want to analyz it that much, I'll retort with the proper specifics.
Besides, a pointless convo as I stated I was going to weld this. Nothing can look factory finish on its first creation. Atleast not from a cost efficient standpoint.

[NOSTALGIC_HERO]

hmm.. that shifter mount is, well, gross.

i like where you went with shortening the dog bone - thats liveable. but the shifter mount could have used a little more time to ponder over. why not machine away the arms, leaving the shifter bucket, then drill some "precisely drilled" holes to mount to some .128 steel plate to the shifter bucket(with the proper hole punched out of the center for the shifter to pass through). then build a simple triangulated, gusseted extension with a steel plate base. This base would have holes drilled to fasten directly to the rear half of the transmission.

then simple green, scuff with some grey 3M pads , blast dry and paint black.. reinstall with some new M6's and M8's with captured washers from Wurth.


thats how i would do it.

[Thaniel]

Only thing that really matters is if it works. That part is burried deep in the car. No one will ever see it once it's installed.

[specdracing]

NOSTALGIC_HERO....

Yes, I agree, all of that would have been nice, and take alot of time. The way I did it was only one possibility of many. To each his own. My reasons for that design, it cost nothing, took less than an hour, and once the welds were made, the bolts were no longer needed. A few minutes with the grinder and noone will ever know this wasnt a factory part.

In future reference, somone might try using a rear housing from an X-Terra 6-speed trans. That housing and shift linkage looks to fit the Z trans. They are both CD part numbers, so they could quite possibly fit with no modification. They use the same Main shaft, so length would be perfect. Oh, and the kicker, I measured one at work and found that the shifter on the X-Terra trans is exactly where we need it on the 240SX. Go figure!

Back to the project I am building, why we are here and not what we should've/could've/would've done....lol

I installed the transmission today. The shifter sits nicely in the vehicle. I see now that my angle on the shifter was a bit too great and will need to be bent back a few degrees. No biggie. We have ordered a D50 4WD driveshaft which should arrive soon. I wired in the throttle motor power supply to the condersor fan connection, eliminated the ground wire at that connector and grounded the OR/L (through E9 i think, to the ECU) inside the passanger compartment to command that relay on with the ignition. The throttle works nicely. I repositioned the motor and began fabing the proper motor mounts (to finaly get rid of the slap togethers I made for engine positioning).

It's getting there. More pics soon.

[bettonracing]

I may have missed it but your engine mounts look like u're using a fwd engine but it's quite obvious u have access to all the good stuff... Are u using a fwd or rwd engine?

I'm in the early stages of a VQ/S13 project myself and just spoke to 'my machinist' who's willing to work with "us" on the shifter bracket. If u guys with a successful swap (Specdracing, Fred, Broaner, Carluch, etc) can get me the appropriate dimensions, he's willing to work out a deal (He's interested in doing the swap himself...). Of course since it looks like everybody cut theirs differently, "appropriate dimensions" will differ so I'm thinking a 3 piece (possibly 4pcs) bracket would be the best solution (side plates would vary with setup). Get me the info and I'll see what I can do.

(Fred, maybe we can develop the bracket like our engine mount thread? Then I'll have everybody using X-braces... )

You could always take the easy way out like I'm doing and relocate the seat, pedals, steering and cut a hole in the tunnel to accomodate the shifter... (No, it's a race car and yes, I've done my homework. Let's move on to more important topics).

Looking good! Keep the pics flowing!

Regards,
H. Kurt Betton

[Broaner]

Well, I didn't alter the location at all. My interior is stripped and I'm 6'1" so the rearward placement wasn't bad for me. So I'm not interested in a bracket but I'd be glad to take measurements to add one more set of data.

[bettonracing]

Broaner:
Is this one of those instances where we point-and-laugh at the street cars?...



Kurt

[specdracing]

Yes, this is a front wheel drive engine. I put the 10.3 pistons in, the rwd oil pan and yes, made the mounts. I did a little different than Fred though. I simply cut two rectangles, drilled 4 holes in the rear for the rear mounts (block), the suspended the engine where I needed it, welded the 240 mounts to the rectangles, then added gussets to the front of the rectangles to support the front of the engine. There are bolt holes at the front (not sure what car uses them, but there are) at the same location on both sides of the block. I just installed the rear bolts (4) and the front bolts (2) and then sat the motor down on stock mounts. I will not be able to use the stock 350Z manifolds though, so to anyone using a FWD motor, I'd suggest the way Fred did it or fab your own mounts.

Later gang!

[carluch]

i took a slightly different approach in dealing with the shifter...
i am using a stock 240sx shifter in a hybrid "bucket"

basically, i took the cast metal bucket off the stock 240 shift fork and placed it on the vq shift fork. i then redrilledthe hole for the set pin and installed it. then i took the top plate fromthe 240 trans, cut and combined it with the cut vq shifter bracket. weld this up together and i have a stock 240 shifter in the stock location...

its basically the same exact think we did for chris's vq trans on the vh56 in his convertable z

[2404ever]

HI, SPECDRACING .i like to ask you,how did you hook up your speedo.there is no speed sensor on the tranny

[Broaner]

Originally Posted by bettonracing

Broaner:
Is this one of those instances where we point-and-laugh at the street cars?...

I missed this. Yes, it most certainly is although I'm technically not a track only car yet. I've yet to get a track of any form whether it 1/4 or road course. But then they all get to laugh at us when a storm blows up and we have to find the nearest gas station, covered parking area or pull into the pits and tarp it until it blows over. This may not be applicable to you but my car is by no means weatherproof. Shoot, if its below 45 degrees I really have to bundle up and 90 degree days aren't much of a joy either.

I'd appreciate seeing different engine mount variation pics if people have them. I'm going to be re-doing mine for the 35 and would love new ideas.

I've forgotten about getting specs on the spacer. Do you still need them Kurt? The only real important measurement is the actual amount of spacing required. I still wanna say thats 29mm. The rest of the specs can be determined from the OE bearing.

[Thaniel]

Originally Posted by 2404ever

HI, SPECDRACING .i like to ask you,how did you hook up your speedo.there is no speed sensor on the tranny

When I noticed that it was quite a shock. For my car I glued magnets to a half shaft then used a hall effect sensor to pick up the signal. Fed it a dakota digital converter then to a electronic speedometer (nissan maxima cluster actually). Works quite nicely.

Thaniel

[irax]

Wow I'm soo glad i still have an active username on this forum.

I had just bought freds VQ35 and I want to use the stock ECU and everything wireing. I was wondering if the fuel pump has to be upgreaded or is the stock fuel pump good enough the same goes with the fpr ?

[Broaner]

I found that the stock pump worked fine for the 3.0 bar injectors. OE FPR worked fine. I upgraded out of choice, not because they failed or worked poorly.